r/ukraine May 08 '22 Silver 1 Helpful 1

Scholz TV speech: "Germany is guilty of unspeakable atrocities against Ukraine and Russia. Because of that we always wanted reconciliation with both people. Both faught together to wrestle down nazism. But now Russia is trying to destroy ukrainian culture & statehood. Russia must no win! News

https://youtu.be/bu0hp8HEvps
4.3k Upvotes

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u/space_10 May 08 '22

I admire Germany so much for admitting past faults. It takes a very self aware and strong person and nation to do so.

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u/Eastern_Scar May 09 '22

If only countries like Russia, china, turkey and many others could admit they have committed crimes in the past.

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u/Candid-Ad2838 May 09 '22

I wish I could give you a million upvotes. This goes not just for the governments but also their people. It's incredible how blindly nationalistic (not patriotic) most people are to the point they will ignore the ugly parts of their past. Literally the main thing holding them back (as Russia has shown) is not being able to get over a past that is gone. From Japan not owning up to ww2, the "south never lost", and "good ol times" nostalgia that got Trump into office, and China claiming Asia is theirs to play with, there's a lot of work to do.

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u/adialbano May 09 '22

And Serbia

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u/Ein_Hirsch Germany May 10 '22

And Croatia

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u/ausmomo May 09 '22

So do I.

But I also think today's German has done enough good to not consider Nazi Germany's actions as their own. What I mean by that is when they say "we did some bad things", I think the "we" part is unfair on today's Germany.

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u/xrufix May 09 '22

As a German, I don't see Nazi Germany's actions as my own, but I still see it as our responsibility as Germans to prevent such atrocities from happening again.

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u/ausmomo May 09 '22

I think we all have that responsibility, and that Germans don't have more responsibility than others.

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u/Ein_Hirsch Germany May 10 '22

I think we all have that responsibility

That is actually a good point. The cuprits were German, but they also were human. So is it a German responsibility? Yes. Is it a human responsibility too? Yes!

I mean the current war proves that better than anything.

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u/xrufix May 09 '22

In principle you are right, but Germany also still is a very powerful country, and might have more knowledge about our history and how fascism works. And like uncle Ben said: With great power comes great responsibility.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

It’s ok. It’s to remind us, that we could always repeat those mistakes. If we start distancing ourselves too much from the actions of our ancestors, we lose sight of them. So I think that’s why we say “we”. It keeps us vigilant.

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u/julsch1 May 09 '22

The „we“ part is more a reference to the nation Germany itself and not to the people currently living. And I think it’s fair as todays Germany is the direct successor to hitlers Germany

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u/saltyswedishmeatball May 09 '22

Agreed.

Slave trade that European countries led in by a massive margin sweep it under the rug. The acknowledgement is there but no month of dedication, no truly massive deals to let the world know the truths. Same with genocide of natives worldwide, again something many western European countries took part in.

One thing the British, Americans and Germans have in common is not only being open about their history but making it known to everyone. Germany has its major memorials for WW2, US has an entire month dedicated to black history, British have documentaries, admissions by royalty, etc.

Those three countries are also the biggest players on the ally side for Ukraine. I know Germany has got a lot of hate and they deserve it but for them, they are trying their hardest believe it or not.

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u/_Ludens May 09 '22

I know Germany has got a lot of hate and they deserve it but for them, they are trying their hardest believe it or not.

German government was trying its hardest to avoid supplying much needed heavy offensive weapons to Ukraine, and was one of the last major states to do it.

Then after all the bad press they finally sent some stuff, but literally a handful versus what they first promised.

Even the German people were largely unhappy, but fact remains that the government's actions were an embarrassment especially given the country's history and its position of leadership in Europe.

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u/EricTheNerd2 May 08 '22 Helpful Wearing is Caring

For those who don't know, the war started with Hitler and Staling signing a non-aggression pact and a secret agreement to divide up Eastern Europe. Both sides were planning on stabbing the other in the back and taking all of Eastern Europe.

There seem to be some "intellectuals" that have recently invaded the Ukraine subreddit who don't know this. Maybe it is because I am older and this message needs to be passed down to the younger generations, but Russia has centuries of history of this kind of behavior.

Russia believes their manifest destiny is to control all of Eastern Europe either through direct military control or political manipulation. I don't know if that mentality can ever be broken, but the West has a choice. Allow Russia to have its way or stand up to the bully.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '22 edited May 08 '22

It is a true historic statement to say that Stalin was the --first-- edit: biggest Nazi collaborator (and by extension Russia and the Russian people), and without Stalin's help (and the Russian soldiers fighting beside Nazi german) Hitler would not have gotten such a foothold in Europe to begin with.

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u/TheUnFunnyComedian May 08 '22

Ehh, I’d say Horthy in Hungary was the first Nazi collaborator. They collaborated in the invasion and occupation of Czechoslovakia.

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u/mercer1775 May 08 '22

They also kinda tricked the Poles into participating as well, which is something that’s almost never taught in school.

Horthy and Hitler both wanted Poland to participate because they believed it would help legitimize their annexations as well.

Gdansk — Polish President Lech Kaczynski termed Warsaw’s role in Germany’s annexation of the former Czechoslovakia as a "sin" at ceremonies marking 70 years of the start of World War II.

"Poland’s participation in the annexation of Czechoslovakia in 1938 was not only an error, but above all a sin," Kaczynski told world leaders attending the ceremonies in the Baltic port city of Gdansk.

"This was and shall forever remain a wrong," Kaczynski added.

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u/_lord_ruin May 09 '22

Damn that’s based I see a lot of ww2 apologists who try to say annexing ethnically similar territories from other states was the right thing to do ( Bulgarians, Hungarians, some Romanians/ Italians) I never knew kaczynski apologized for this and without any of the self victimizing

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u/kju May 08 '22 edited May 09 '22

it could be argued that germany never would have been able to re arm their military so well if the soviet union hadn't given them space to test, build and train modern equipment in the soviet union.

germany couldn't have things like tanks or planes after ww1, but the soviet union secretly gave them everything they needed for those things in the soviet union so that they could get around the treaty of versailles. lipetsk aviation academy and kama tank academy made early ww2 possible for germany.

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u/ChaosM3ntality Dancing Ukrainian Pig Meme May 09 '22

Agree found out Heinz guderian himself trained on those Soviet academies

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u/ProsperoFalls May 09 '22

A lot of those agreements were made prior to 1933 with the Weimar government.

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u/kju May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

They started around 1923 after Germany couldn't make payments and french and Belgium went into ruhr coal fields to take payment.

Germany didn't start rebuilding their military in 1933, it took a long time. Could Germany have been ready for war so early if they hadn't started rebuilding their military much earlier?

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u/Bustomat May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

Some say, the history between Germany and Russia started with Catherine, the Great. Link Later, the Germans gave Lenin a leg up to take over Russia with the intent of no longer having to fight on the eastern front during WW1, which basically was a family feud, anymore. Link

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u/shares_inDeleware May 08 '22

Even grabbed a chunk of real-estate for themselves, IIRC

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u/TheUnFunnyComedian May 08 '22

Yep, southern Slovakia and Carpathian Ukraine/Ruthenia were granted to Hungary as part of the First Vienna Award and subsequent division of the country respectively.

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u/matinthebox May 08 '22

And they would have done the same again in 2022 with Zakarpatia if Russia had managed to take over Ukraine

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u/[deleted] May 08 '22

Fair enough

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u/CaptnFnord161 May 08 '22

Pope Pius XII. was an even earlier supporter of Nazi Germany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat?wprov=sfla1

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u/ToastyBob27 May 09 '22

Saw a video on Horthy he was always trying to walk a tight rope between not wanting to br involved in a war with the allied powers and Germany trying to get Hungary to join the axis. All the land Hungary took were ones with international agreement until Horthy pretty much lost control and the Facist began running his government and they helped invade Yugoslavia. But before that has refused to help invade Poland but did assist Germany in Russia. Horthy saw the writing on the wall and wanted peace with the Allie’s but they required he launch a rebellion which he did but it was lackluster and he was arrested and taken away to Germany. History is complicated the only Jews he let Germany take away were ones that weren’t Hungarian citizens which is still messed up but atleast he wouldn’t sell his own people out.

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u/Raul_Endy May 08 '22

And the repercussions of Stalin's foothold are still felt to this day, most of eastern Europe is still a shithole when compared with the west. It is a duty of mankind to never again let those commie scum get in control.

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u/MagicianNew3838 May 08 '22

most of eastern Europe is still a shithole when compared with the west.

Eastern Europe is catching up with the rest of the continent. Are every countries poorer than the G7 average shitholes?

It is a duty of mankind to never again let those commie scum get in control.

Heh? The current Russian regime isn't communist.

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u/eHeeHeeHee May 09 '22

Guess i was lucky i was born in Estonia lol

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u/MagicianNew3838 May 09 '22

According to this big-brained gentleman, your country is a shithole!

Somehow, I'm sure this is news to you.

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u/eHeeHeeHee May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

Really big news🤣 It’s far from shithole but oh well Haha

EDIT: Don’t think most of us here count us Eastern Europe anymore, either we’re Nordic or Baltic, rarely see anyone saying we’re Eastern europe, we don’t want anything to do with The “East”

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u/MagicianNew3838 May 09 '22

EDIT: Don’t think most of us here count us Eastern Europe anymore, either we’re Nordic or Baltic, rarely see anyone saying we’re Eastern europe, we don’t want anything to do with The “East”

Fair enough! But then Poland's GDP per capita is now also almost as high as Estonia's, and Poland is clearly still considered "Eastern Europe", so what gives...

Ultimately, it's just incredibly offensive (and plainly moronic) to call any country a shithole.

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u/Von665 May 09 '22

Good point , I will remember that . Thanks 🇨🇦

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u/eHeeHeeHee May 09 '22

If you have time or bother reading or just skipping thro some shit then we’re more Nordic than Eastern. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Estonia

Hell even Danes got their national flag after it fell Down the sky in Tallinn😃

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u/Von665 May 09 '22

Thank you, I understand the Nordic & Baltic, I just didn't know that the term Eastern Europe was not appreciated.

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u/asveikau May 08 '22

One of the more cruel aspects to this story is that Stalin was from Georgia.

The Russian territorial expansionism stuff way predates him. But he was a sellout to his heritage to perpetuate it.

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u/sniperlucian May 08 '22

Hitler was from Austria ... start to see a picture here :)

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u/someguy3 May 09 '22

Napoleon was from Corsica.

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u/asveikau May 08 '22

This is off topic, but I'm liking that I got a reply with your username. My four year old son is called Lucian, and we're hanging out right now.

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u/sniperlucian May 08 '22

not nice within this topic :\

mine too - but he is sleeping now ( 1 am here). but have my username longer than my son though ;)

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u/asveikau May 08 '22

My son has this name because it's my middle name. So.. seems we are both fans of the name. Cheers!

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u/sniperlucian May 08 '22

actually my grandfather hat a Greek friend called Lucian during WWII. Always wanted me to have this name - but my parents choose different. So this name became my internet identity ;)

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u/plasticenewitch May 08 '22 edited May 08 '22

Here is your source; use it with those idiots I mean intellectuals on the Ukraine subreddit. They cannot really argue without showing their lack of knowledge when you cite legitimate sources. Thanks for bringing this topic up. Also known as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact:

https://www.britannica.com/event/German-Soviet-Nonaggression-Pact

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/german-soviet-pact

Edit: Made a huge mistake with word usage. Comments will clue you in to the extent of the error.

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u/SnooSuggestions5419 May 08 '22

Maroons are descendants of black slaves. I know a good German would never insinuate anything that might be perceived as racist. I bet you were looking for Idiot or Moron, vernacular for a stupid person. Alternatively if you want to call them a cookie perhaps you meant macaron. I don’t mean to be pedantic but writing German I get told off if I drop an umlaut typing on a phone.

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u/dankfor20 May 08 '22

He might have meant Maroon but not as intentionally racist. I never heard the term in that context. I am aware of Bugs Bunny using it as a term for stupid. After a little research I see that could’ve been a double entendre back then, but wasn’t aware until today!

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u/Cyber_Lanternfish May 08 '22

non native english speaker here : does it have something to do with Maroon 5 name ?

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u/[deleted] May 08 '22

[deleted]

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u/plasticenewitch May 08 '22 edited May 08 '22

I was corrected by another redditor, and am ashamed that my lack of knowledge may have caused anyone anger or hurt. I recently read the word on another forum and had no idea of the context or history of the statement. I am so grateful to those who have helped me learn something today. I should have been more clued in though, or perhaps have researched a new word. I am also now angry because people are using this word that has no place in the world except as perhaps a history lesson.

I thought it was a takeoff on the word moron….

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u/dankfor20 May 08 '22

Bugs bunny did use it as a take on moron. Could have had racist undertones but I was certainly unaware of that.

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u/juicius May 08 '22

Probably not a widely known fact. My high school football coach used to call us maroons when he wanted to call us morons for messing up. Our team colors were also maroon and gold so the man has a perfect cover.

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u/loudflower May 08 '22

Respect to modern Germany

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u/Crosscourt_splat May 08 '22

Anyone not aware of the molotov-ribbentrop pact..at least as far as the taking of Poland is a willfully ignorant person. I appreciate the sentiment..but this is still taught in schoola in the US (and I assume in Europe as well).

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u/pijcab France May 08 '22

(and I assume in Europe as well).

Correct I knew about this already, even though it makes a lot more sense today then back when I first read about it...

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u/RexLupie May 08 '22

It is common knowledge... the whole thing with russia is that germany fought a 'vernichtungskrieg' with russia kind like russia in ukraine just with more industrially organized genocide... not including jews here because that was even worse and does not require an explanation...

no one thinks russians were innocent, quite the opposite even... but 'vernichtungskrieg' stays 'vernichtungskrieg' and is not okay...

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u/SnooSuggestions5419 May 08 '22

Finally this guy stopped the constant waffle back and forth. This is the key point. True leadership is not telling public what they want to hear but what they need to hear even at risk to your electability. Now hope at some point if he would Say we cannot forget the past but it’s time 85 years later to assume it’s rightful place as a major European country in the Defense of Europe I might change my bleak opinion of this guy.

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u/Ooops2278 May 08 '22

Honest question... how much of that "back and forth" have you heard in that form... the actual full text before cutting, sometimes mistranslating and framing?

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u/pijcab France May 08 '22

Texts and translations don't matter, actions do...

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u/Quetzacoatl85 May 09 '22

sadly, I think this is still part of the waffling back and forth, just the "forth" part. :/

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u/Technical-Phrase-690 May 09 '22

Ask a Russian when WWII started 7/10 they're going to say 1941. Because nothing significant happened between 1939-1941 and definitely not because of any pact signed with any Nazis

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u/Quetzacoatl85 May 08 '22

good post!

if it can ever be broken

sadly, this is who Russia is. since the start of the modern idea of statehood and czarist russia, it has been built on the subjugation of countless asian peoples by one strong minority from the area around moscow.

it never stopped being a colonial power, we just didn't notice because unlike in the west, its colonies lie directly adjacent to the mainland, and they are partially inhabited by other white people.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '22 edited May 08 '22

[deleted]

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u/MagicianNew3838 May 08 '22

they deny that they started WW2 and that they allied themselves with Hitler to invade Poland.

The USSR didn't start WW2. WW2 began when Britain and France declared war on Germany, in response to the latter's invasion of Poland.

Soviet Russia was just as bad as the Nazis.

Stalin's USSR was bad, don't get me wrong.

But it wasn't as bad as Hitler's Germany.

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u/sniperlucian May 08 '22 edited May 08 '22

agree.

but like always it goes two ways.

you can use history to generate emotion to manipulate - like Putin as argument to start a war.

or you can use the past to learn from it and to not make the same mistakes again.

IMO Germany had (as looser and not being crushed completely after WWII) the opportunity to make a new start. And they made a much better brake and processing of the past than (any) other Nation (like Russia or USA or Israel). Basically the last two generations are completely disconnected and oppose Nazi Germany Identity, opposite to Russia which stuck with WWII identity.

Pushing Stalin / Hitler as implication Germany is on Russia side misleading. Therefore for a lot of Germans to be put on the same axis as Russia is not justified and very frustrating. Especially as this propaganda is massively pushed by Ukrainian government channels.

Edit: This shows that Ukraine also has its own (very professional) agenda. Which is good -because that way they so successful defending. It however changes the perspective.

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u/VR_Bummser May 08 '22

Youtube auto translated subtitles available.

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u/bitrar May 08 '22

Currently it seems that only German subtitles are available, sadly. Would you please mind adding a translation, my German is very rusty at best?

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u/loudflower May 08 '22

You might find this carried by DW on YT. They have extensive English language coverage

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u/stillherewondering May 08 '22

Bundeskanzler.de / Bundesregierung.de usually provides subtitles in a dozen languages for official speeches by chancellor.

Edit: yup, I remembered correctly.. here it is: https://www.bundeskanzler.de/bk-en/news/address-by-federal-chancellor-scholz-on-8-may-2037664

/u/VR_Bummser /u/bitrar /u/loudflower /u/indicuda

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u/Dark__Thoughts Germany May 08 '22

I think you can only tag up to three people per comment. So /u/indicuda, /u/bitrar and /u/VR_Bummser (ಠ_ಠ) probably didn't get your ping. The one for loudflower was unnecessary, since you directly replied to them.

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u/VR_Bummser May 08 '22

You can switch to english translated subs, worked for me when I tested

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u/bitrar May 08 '22

What I'm saying is that they're not available to me, at least not right now. The only options under Settings → Subtitles are German and Off.

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u/eat_more_ovaltine May 08 '22

I think we can all agree that Russia must no win.

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u/EmilyFara Netherlands May 08 '22

They cannot win. The question is... How much damage will be done before they (are forced to) give up.

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u/screamingfireeagles May 09 '22

Even without the use of nuclear weapons, if Russia implements mass mobilization and bring millions of men into their military, they'll swamp the Ukrainians through sheer numbers.

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u/inbruges99 May 09 '22

Only if they improve their logistics. If they don’t, then it won’t matter how many men they mobilise, they’ll all get annihilated when they run out of fuel.

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u/_Ludens May 09 '22

They can't. It took 2 years to amass all those Russian forces around Ukraine's borders.

Russia also has no more modern equipment in reserves, they've lost a big % of their operational tanks and armored vehicles, helicopters and planes, they have a big shortage of pilots.

If they force a mobilization, they'll be throwing waves of untrained soldiers equipped with decrepit gear and weapons.

I hope Putin is stupid enough to go through with it, as it'll only accelerate his military's collapse.

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u/_Ludens May 09 '22

if Russia implements mass mobilization and bring millions of men into their military, they'll swamp the Ukrainians through sheer numbers

Russia has absolutely no way of doing that.

If Putler announces mobilization and declares open war, he'll be sinking his own ship even faster.

they'll swamp the Ukrainians through sheer numbers

Again besides Russian's inability to do this, we're not in WW2 anymore, throwing a bunch of poorly equipped, untrained and unmotivated retards against Ukraine, which now has all this NATO weaponry and more on the way, would just result in mass casualties for Russia.

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u/EmilyFara Netherlands May 08 '22

I watched it a couple hours ago. And it gave tears in my eyes. Powerful message from a powerful country. Admitting mistakes, explaining the nuances and problems, and then explaining the plan. And I think it's a good plan. I hope the Ukrainians win this hard with German hardware so that no German has to ever feel shame for their past. I don't think anyone should be accountable for their ancestors actions, but it seems like they still feel responsible.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

My granddad joined the Wehrmacht at 18 because he supported the Nazis. His dad, my great grandfather, openly opposed them and they fell out because of it. Later, he (great granddad) was killed by the Nazis and only then did my granddad realize how evil they are. This is part of my family’s story and I sworn to never forget. It’s my personal responsibility to be vigilant - I owe it to my great granddad, Heinrich. Rest in peace, my good man. <3

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u/Sul_Haren May 09 '22

Your great granddad was a hero, much respect.

Wished I had family that openly opposed the nazis, but I do not (to my knowledge).

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

Thank you! He was the only one in my family on both sides afaik, but he’s the one that sticks out for me and I think about him a lot and how - even if his life was cut short - it was so much more meaningful because he didn’t succumb to the darkness that spread through the country at the time. I also had a great granddad on my mothers side who was a soldier and disappeared in the baltics during the war - my nan had to grow up without him. I think it’s important people look at how their own family was involved in these historical events as it helps to deal with the generational trauma. I have much respect for Niklas Frank, the son of Hans Frank (the so-called “butcher of Poland”, Nazi governor of the Polish occupied areas), whose parents were heartless monsters as described by himself. He never kid himself about his family and has written very insightful and condemning books and it has kept him sane and good hearted. For me this shows that there’s hope even for the “offspring of evil”. By the way, talking about Hans Frank (I just randomly realised this, but this is interesting): before he was hanged for his crimes - he claimed that Hitler had Jewish roots. The story has been disproven and in Germany we believe he just wanted to further his antisemitic cause and twist and turn the whole thing into “it’s the Jews fault after all!!” and making himself seem like he revealed a huge important secret before his death. Well guess who used Hans franks claim for his disgusting propaganda? Fucking Lavrov. Man, it’s so fucking obvious who the Nazis are here… it’s disgusting.

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u/sniperlucian May 09 '22

this exactly shows that values are not only transmitted by household/parents - but also society.

therefore is very important that our values are teached in school - also derived in history.

this happend in germany - but less, distorted or not at all in other country's (e.g. USA, Russia). This easy to manipulate/control masses of people. (this explains also the fight in USA from republicans about teaching in schools.)

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u/supersecretpudding May 08 '22

Why does everyone keep saying Germany isn't doing enough? Aren't they second behind the US for equipment donated? Like yeah everyone can send more but Christ if you just looked at headlines you'd think Germany was holding out a lot more

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u/sniperlucian May 08 '22

its even worse on twitter. there are several Ukrainian promoted accounts which spill pure poison against Germany. It's also scary to see how many people jump on this without reflection or fact checking. wonder if this is just emotional driver or to get as much attention as possible.

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u/Justforbrowsingfree May 08 '22

Seen from an EU standpoint Germany had a big role in creating the environment where Russia had the ability to attack Ukraine and expect the EU/Germany to not do anything.

I, as a part of the EU in a small country also need Germany to act as a leader, as we have tied outself to them via EU and if/when they hesitate, as they did with the heavy weapons transfers it makes me anxious of a more centralized EU, which we need to be able to stand up to the autocracies of the world.

The fact that they now seem to have their shit together and be the biggest contributors in Europe is very pleasing and makes me a little less worried about the future of Europe.

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u/staplehill May 08 '22

Germany is happy to lead economically and when it comes to paying for something.

Not that inclined to lead militarily.

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u/sniperlucian May 08 '22

Thanks for saying this and I understand that. The (funny) thing - all (a lot) want Germany to lead - but all are afraid of Germany to lead (again) too at the same time. (at least my impression).

Also Germany dealt a LOT with its past - still trauma of war still prevails, depending on Generation ofc. That's why they are so *blocked* to escalate the war.

Also Germany is really bad with the media ;) Tried to help silently - where other nations just make a big deal out of everything.

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u/fuzzydice_82 May 09 '22

Thanks for saying this and I understand that. The (funny) thing - all (a lot) want Germany to lead - but all are afraid of Germany to lead (again) too at the same time. (at least my impression).

Right up until the invasion at the beginning of this year germany got shunned everytime there was just a hint of power projection. Some people were even stupid enough to babble nonsense about the fourth reich, because germany was the biggest economy in the EU..

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u/Far_Boysenberry1168 May 08 '22 edited May 09 '22

The creating of the environment where Russia was able to attack Ukraine was originally meant as the creating of an environment where Russia is integrated in Europe to prevent Russia from attacking European counties. Needless to say it backfired.

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u/benjiro3000 May 08 '22

The creating of the environment where Russia was able to attack Ukraine was originally meant as the creating of a an environment where Russia is integrated in Europe to prevent Russia from attacking European counties. Needless to say it backfired.

What is ironic to call it a failure when it actually worked for a lot of countries. People have short memory / do not know their history...

Europe has been at war constantly for century on century. It was the buildup of the EU integration on a economic level that removed the "lets conq my neighbors for resources".

The same was expected from Russia by integrating it into the West more and more. Hell, if it was not for the corruption and Russia spend its gas/oil money actually investing, it will probably have grown in economic massively. Like China...

I always say: Give me the landmass of Russia with the resource and boy i will make a economic superpower out of it.

That is the problem with a dictatorship, your rolling the dice. Sometimes it ends up well ( Spain ) other times it backfires and you get blamed for it.

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u/benjiro3000 May 08 '22

Seen from an EU standpoint Germany had a big role in creating the environment where Russia had the ability to attack Ukraine and expect the EU/Germany to not do anything.

What is kind of ironic when we see that a lot more countries are depended on that Russian gas.

And no offense but really? Its all Germany its fault? Really??? There is plenty of blame to go around when we look around. Russia has had their hands in lots of countries, we only need to look at Brexit and Trump to see how far things have gotten. Now people gotten short memories because the weapons flow and Russia misgambled.

If Russia took Kiev in 3 days / took out the president, then what? It will have been considered a brilliant victory for Russia. Its the brave defense of Ukraine and the corrupt incompetency of Russia's troops that opened up all these discussions and changes.

when they hesitate, as they did with the heavy weapons transfers it makes me anxious of a more centralized

Again, what heavy weapons. Germany just did a 100B upgrade because the German army is so heavily underfunded. Weapons that they want to export to Ukraine are stuck with ammo issues.

This war has actually been a good thing for Germany to wake up as a nation and fix it defense issues. But that does not help Ukraine much, as Germany itself is struggling with its own heavy weapons. Even i am amazed how few active tanks etc Germany has left.

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u/sniperlucian May 08 '22

yeah we really lived in a bubble thinking war in europe is something of the past.

sadly you always need a common enemy to unite.

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u/SlantViews May 08 '22

Somehow in the past 20 years, the world convinced itself that Germany was Europe's piggy bank and is sitting on some secret stash of unlimited money and resources.

I blame our ability to fake it till you make it for close to 80 years now. It's our blessing and our curse. At some point someone will realise that we're just humans and not robots in humanoid form, that our workforce is severely and chronically underpaid and that building good machinery is really just a question of measuring correctly...

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u/SnooSuggestions5419 May 08 '22

Actually from an outsider looking in but having lived there I have sympathy for what you wrote. But I think some criticism of economic policy is warranted but one has to understand the context. Certainly most educated people understand German reticence about defense spending. If you read German history it was the 1920’s and hyperinflation and the great economic,material, and human trauma produced almost a inflation phobia. I suspect Its the cause of those low wages. The little Kaiser bakery in Berlin where I ate breakfast is a perfect example. The woman worker came in early to bake, prepare foods, sell and ring up sales, and clean. In US at least 3 staff, in Brazil 5. She did it alone For all this she was paid the princely wage of 980 Euro monthly. The government would rather pay out transportation credits than for gods sake have a reasonable minimum wage law. I suspect this is at root of some of spending reticence about Ukraine as well.

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u/SlantViews May 08 '22

There's a huge discussion about minimum wage. And without going pro or con either way on the discussion, here's where I say the minimum wage discussion ain't the right tool for what we're talking about. Minimum wage has only one purpose, one goal: Keep people above the (arbitrarily determined) poverty line. That's it. No more, no less.

The problem isn't that there's no minimum wage or that it's too low. The problem is that German workers don't revolt. The inflation has nothing to do with it. Absolute and stark-raving fear of unemployment is the reason. People will rather take a bad salary than risk unemployment. For a country that's being shat on as a wellfare state, we're apparently not doing very well on that front. People are absolutely traumatized just thinking about unemployment.

I'm waiting for the pain to be strong enough for people to rise up and go on mass strikes. But so far the belly is too full and the pain ain't quite harsh enough, yet.

You can talk about minimum wage all you want, but in the end, you're only talking about how little the lowest workers get and you're giving companies a metric on exactly how much they can exploit their people. That's all. In the end, it'll just make it that much easier for them to do a cost/benefit calculation and see if they want to move out of Germany or not. But for the bricklayer on the construction site? It'll change preciously little.

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u/Cazadore May 09 '22

workers in germany are not just underpaid, but also overworked. it may not look like it with how much holidays we got but mental and physcial illnesses are spiking for years now. i myself was worked to the bone until i had no more to give. and im just in my early 30s.

and when you get sick and fall out of the working population into the social security network, youre seen as a parasite by your peers, that dont want you to have the dirt under your fingernails. and dont get me started about loan workers and working conditions for foreigners...

all in the name of economic growth, even if its less than 1%.

sorry for this rant. im just litterally sick and tired of all this bullshit.

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u/SlantViews May 09 '22

No, you're 100% right and not enough people are ranting like this. I'm still hoping for some outrage at some point, where the general workforce rises up and actually strikes.

I blame unions for this as well. Ever since Verdi, they've only managed to do little bullshit mini-strikes that barely change anything but get on everyone's nerves. Call a big strike, get everyone the pay they deserve. And if a company can't afford it and goes bust, well so be it. I don't need "Volkswagen AG" to exist just because it's always existed. They should conduct their business better instead of wasting money on fraud trials because they thought they can cheat the system.

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u/jasc92 May 08 '22

It's the shit-on-Germany bandwagon.

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u/Gammelpreiss May 08 '22

This behaviour pattern is present since ww2. Germany is doing something? Nazi. Germany is not doing something? Germany forgot history! Germany reacts and is doing something. Nazi!

Reliable like clockwork. Makes you wonder how far back that goes and if imperial Germany and what came after maybe had a point when dealing with the rest of Europe. Youi'll always be hated anyways, so why bother?

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u/SlantViews May 08 '22

Youi'll always be hated anyways, so why bother?

I was with you up until that point.

Why bother? You mean once you stop caring what others think about you, you might as well go pure Lucifer and burn the world? :P

Thank fuck we're better than that now.

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u/Gammelpreiss May 08 '22

There is a range of possebilities between "not caring" and "go all lucifer". I am sure you'll be able to figure some out.

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u/benjiro3000 May 08 '22

You mean once you stop caring what others think about you, you might as well go pure Lucifer and burn the world? :P

Done that ... twice. Want a third time? ;)

That is what people fear in Germany. The political party ADF its success scares people as even now, there is still this nationalism/racism present ( interestingly its heavily focused on the ex-USSR part of east Germany ).

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u/SlantViews May 09 '22

Ok, I'll defend the East Germans here now. I know about Saxony and it's so easy to say they're all nazis, but what people often overlook is that while 30% of the Saxon electorate voted AfD... 70% did not. It's concerning, yes. but Schleswig-Holstein just voted and AfD missed 5% and is out of the state parliament. AfD is on the decline, I have said that in 2020, in 2021 and I'll happily repeat it in 2022.

If you're a one trick pony getting votes because of a heavy influx of refugees, you're really fucked when that influx stops. And right now they have a bigass problem with ideology, because they would like to oppose more refugees from Ukraine, while at the same time supporting Putin, but their voter base are neo-nazis that hate Russia (because of the East German rule during the cold war).

They'll live in Saxony for one more year and then they'll lose the majority. Because the biggest achilles heel of reactionary extremist parties is... they are really shit at ruling. They're good for making noise in the opposition, but that's about it. It's always easier to oppose than to create laws.

(Please don't start with the Weimar Republic, different time, different political system, different game... and our current constitution is pretty much designed to prevent those flaws from making a comeback.)

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u/da2Pakaveli May 09 '22

Another annoying thing is “Germany started both world wars” as an argument. WWI ultimately kicked off after Russian aided Serbs killed an Austrian. Prior to that aggressions from every major power involved worsened the conflict. Consensus is that everyone is at fault for WWI and putting all the blame on Germany was indeed helpful for Hitler’s rise.

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u/Gammelpreiss May 09 '22

I am aware, but especially the British love their black/white history.

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u/Ein_Hirsch Germany May 10 '22

The Americans are even worse regarding that. Good guys against bad guys. That's what Americans are taught in school.

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u/syoxsk May 08 '22

Lots of Russian divide and conquer trolls.

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u/Gammelpreiss May 08 '22

More British and Polish, really.

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u/DontmindthePanda May 09 '22

Unfortunately at least one of them is Ukrainian - and an official Ukrainian diplomat nonetheless

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u/W4lhalla May 09 '22

And we can't get rid of him right now because it would be a PR nightmare.

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u/Rufuske May 09 '22

Guilty, shitting on germany and defending orban is favourite pass time of retards in polish gov.

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u/justjansorry May 08 '22

No, Canada and the United Kingdom are.

SOURCE: The Ukrainian Government.

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u/shinjuku1730 May 08 '22 edited May 09 '22

Because that's what happens, at least in German discourse.

Please, don't believe "Germany is second", when even the German military doesn't know the value of the items shipped. → https://www.t-online.de/nachrichten/ausland/id_91934398/waffenlieferungen-in-die-ukraine-christine-lambrecht-faehrt-die-salamitaktik.html

Industry is waiting for the chancellor to approve these deals, but it's not signed yet → https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik-gesellschaft/waffenlieferungen-aus-deutschland-viele-versprechen-wenig-konkretes-li.226377 (Artillery PhZ 2000 supposed to be delivered but has to be repaired first, but the order to repair is still not signed)

Guys, i'm German and following this closely. Why the downvotes?

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u/RubenMuro007 May 08 '22

To all the Germany-bad-not-doing-enough crowd here who are stirring shit for the sake of stirring shit, WHEN IS IT ENOUGH? Germany, despite their mistakes early on and before the war, has been doing enough for Ukraine, and is slowly but surely been weaning off Russian oil (and I’m think gas, do I might be incorrect, any sensible German here please feel free to correct me on this, I haven’t been caught up on the news, danke), and also, Germany has been helping in many ways (weapons, humanitarian aid, sanctions, etc.)

Don’t let bad faith individuals tear us apart, that’s what Putin wants, divide and conquer.

Thank you Germany for everything you do for Ukraine, we see it and acknowledge it.

Cheers!

-An American

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u/misana123 May 08 '22

According to the German government a few days ago, it looks like this: Russian gas imports were 55% pre-war, 35% now. Oil imports 35% pre-war, 12% now (and Germany now supports an embargo), coal imports were 45% pre-war, 8% now.

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u/Celtic_Cheetah_92 May 08 '22

Seconded - A Brit.

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u/Cinderpath May 08 '22

Third- another American!

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u/cpteric May 08 '22

as a Berliner, for me, it'll be enough when they come out clean and say officially "we fucked up royally, and we're deeply sorry", expel schröder from the SPD and seize all his assets, and give the good to go to all what the industry wants to provide to ukraine, plus finding extra deals like small arms and protection from H&K and similar.

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u/sniperlucian May 08 '22

as a Berliner myself I can not agree with this black & white mentality. I dont like Schröder either, but I don't think he intentionally supported a Russian aggression. And its of nobody's use to ride that train (expect for propaganda obviously). It's also not only Germany but the whole west making business with Russia. Especially the Brits, and Boris is now celebrated ...

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u/HoAdanac May 08 '22

Schroder is on the board of directors at Gazprom still, he refuses to give up the position. What makes it worse is that he's known to be a friend of Putin. It is crazy to me that a former Chancellor of Germany would be in such a position, he's collecting blood money from the Russians at this point.

I dont think he is like Merkel who was naive but not malicious in her dealings with Russia. Schroder knows what the Russians are but he is still supporting them.

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u/th1s_1s_4_b4d_1d34 May 08 '22

I mean Schröder sold out as much as humanly possible and honestly I'm for permanently banning him from the SPD if possible, but superficially his politics of financial interweaving with Russia is in line with the classical SPD policies of normalization with the east.

It's a shame Putin was mad enough or felt threatened enough to throw all of that away, but until the Maidan rebellion and the Russian attack on Crimea happened there might have been a chance that eventually we could have pressured Russia into positive reforms. I guess the country is just gonna turn into North Korea now.

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u/sniperlucian May 08 '22

Yes I agree - I don't like this either. But I don't think if there would be much different if here would be someone else.

Also this is very much distraction. Actually look at the link below (didnt had time for source checking myself though) - Ukraine was about cut Russia from Europe. Nordstream actually might have delayed the invasion - giving Russia alternative access to Europe ... who knows. (maybe in 20 years).

Germany also wanted to prevent war at *all* cost. Questions is - how far you willing to go with a Kleptocracy and when enough is enough. Outlook to WW III isn't fun either.

https://twitter.com/NickBrunyate/status/1516376334137757696

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u/Sc3p May 08 '22

expel schröder from the SPD

You have a surprising lack of knowledge about the political system of germany if you think that you can simply throw people out of parties. Theres a reason why even the most hated people like Sarrazin need 10 years to finally get thrown out (and it would have taken longer if he would have sued against that decision). Its more or less impossible to throw people out if they dont want to leave.

and seize all his assets

I guess you also have a serious lack of knowledge about the judicial system of germany. There are laws, the government cant just do whatever the fuck it wants to.

give the good to go to all what the industry wants to provide to ukraine

So exactly what its already doing? Guess you dont watch the news either. Unsurprisingly "the industry" doesnt have huge stockpiles of weapons ready for battle standing around.

plus finding extra deals like small arms and protection from H&K and similar

So uhhhh.... exactly whats being done since the beginning of the war?

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u/fottik325 May 08 '22

I like this Berliner. Just admit you messed up you tried to deal with the Orxs on a humane level and it did not work. It’s ok if you admit it now, you’re trying to stop giving them money and sending equipment. I also wonder if 3D chess is at play to say bad stuff about Germany to keep them on the right path or distract the Orx so the the Orx think they are allies again.

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u/sniperlucian May 08 '22

its definitely good line to stay longer in the news.

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

As a German, I couldn’t agree more. Thank you! We need to stand together more than ever now.

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u/Ein_Hirsch Germany May 10 '22

I'm actually returning to this sub now after I left it 1 month ago. Back then this sub was basically 100% "the Germany-bad-not-doing-enough crowd" and just defending Germany's current actions in the slightest would get you downvoted hard.

But looking at comments like this and how much support it gets I'm actually starting to get hopeful again, that people will stop blindly hating on Germany and try have a rational debate about current events.

Thanks for that.

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u/Okkokkk May 09 '22

As a German I get more and more pissed of by the increasing number of people whole bash Germany for no good reason. Germany has delivered a lot to Ukraine already. Before and during the war. The expectation of cutting off Russian gas immediately is fairly stupid and and narrow minded. It’s unfortunate that Germany still depends on it but if we cut Russian gas today we have a huge recession next month with tons of unemployment. It might spill to other EU countries even and guess what? Recession means no government spending on foreign aid and support for Ukrainian army and people because no budget. So please stop this nonsense. Also, bashing each other is exactly what Putin wants and doesn’t help anyone. Germans try hard to find solutions so just have patience

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u/NordicBot May 09 '22

Mostly americans, though.

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u/Tuggerfub May 08 '22

Germany has been amazing lately.

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u/polmeeee May 08 '22

Some of the comments in this thread are disgusting.

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u/RubenMuro007 May 08 '22

At this point, it’s predictable, there’s no post about Germany without some bashing.

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u/Vault_Traveler May 08 '22

I am pretty sure they all from germans, they have some extreme unsettling minority trying to destabilize their own country to establish a stronger right wing

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u/WhatAboutTheBee May 08 '22

I am happy to hear Scholz make positive statements.

Go GERMANY

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u/nexusband May 08 '22

Well, at least he knows what "Never again" actually meant.

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u/EyeLikeTheStonk May 08 '22

Looks like Scholz finally found his balls after weeks of searching...

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u/Successful-Daikon533 May 08 '22 edited May 08 '22

and the local news "bild" write the opposite its garbage news in germany

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u/Der_Auditor May 08 '22

Die Bild-Zeitung ist ein Organ der Niedertracht. Es ist falsch, sie zu lesen. Jemand, der zu dieser Zeitung beiträgt, ist gesellschaftlich absolut inakzeptabel. Es wäre verfehlt, zu einem ihrer Redakteure freundlich oder auch nur höflich zu sein. Man muss so unfreundlich zu ihnen sein, wie es das Gesetz gerade noch zuläßt. Es sind schlechte Menschen, die Falsches tun.

The Bild newspaper is an organ of infamy. It is wrong to read them. Anyone who contributes to this newspaper is socially totally unacceptable. It would be a mistake to be friendly or even polite to any of their editors. You have to be as unkind to them as the law allows. It's bad people who do wrong

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u/da2Pakaveli May 09 '22

Add “Die Welt” to that!

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u/Ooops2278 May 08 '22

The difference probably is that you -for the first time- view/read a full statement, not some edited, badly translated and framed version...

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u/SnooSuggestions5419 May 08 '22

Playing pocket pool

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u/[deleted] May 08 '22

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u/VR_Bummser May 08 '22

You can Scholz anything, but he is the opposite of an oportunist.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '22 edited May 08 '22

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u/manschego May 08 '22

You have no clue, have you?

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u/[deleted] May 08 '22

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u/RubenMuro007 May 08 '22

When is it enough for you anti-Germany trolls? Zelenskyy and Scholz have already reconciled and are trying to make sure more stuff are coming to Ukraine and funny enough, Germany has been doing enough, and it’s not just helmets.

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u/itsrud1 May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

Wow leave it to Germans to make a great comeback and be real and humble. Thats what i call courage. It goes to show you how Russia has shocked Europe. This is a rare and perhaps unprecedented moment when we have almost the entire world united against Russia. I’m happy that Germany is getting in the fight against Ruzzian fascism.

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u/unknown_wtc May 09 '22

Soviet Union army was fighting to defeat German Nazism, but it seems RuZZia adopted it instead.

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u/KnightTemplar0 May 08 '22

It's good to hear he's getting with the program

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u/Nonamanadus May 08 '22

Russia is acting the exact same way as Nazi Germany did. Modern Germany should strongly stand up to this fascist regime, giving Ukraine what it needs without delay.

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u/Pat5zero May 09 '22

Russia has atrocities and crimes against humanity in its own history. They even have a record for it.MOST PROLIFIC OFFICIAL EXECUTIONER.

Personally selected in 1926 by Stalin, leader of the former USSR, VasiliM Blokhin acted as chief executioner to the NKVD (People&#8217;sCommissariat of Internal Affairs), where he led a company ofexecutioners.&#160; Under him, they carried out most of theexecutions ordered by Stalin and, not only is he&#160;recorded ashaving executed&#160;all significant prisoners of the regime by hisown hand as well as many others, he&#160;also,&#160;personally,executed 7,000 Polish officers at the Ostachkov prison camp in 1940 overprecisely 28 nights, that is 250 executions a night.&#160; He thusranks as the world&#8217;s most prolific, officialexecutioner.&#160; He died in 1955.https://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/90113-most-prolific-official-executioner

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u/[deleted] May 09 '22

It is really heartbreaking as a nowaday German to watch what Russia is doing. We, as a nation, confronted ourselves with the German atrocities and swore to never repeat them. And now we witness another nation doing the same… I feel helpless and angry. We said: Nie wieder. Nie wieder. Nie wieder. And now we stand by and watch it happen again. I’m sorry we’re not doing more. I think, on a whole, Germany has been and still is walking on eggshells, because of our history. We take time to make political decisions, we don’t want to rush anything to avoid mistakes. That’s why Germany seems so slow. We created a legal system with lots of failsafes to avoid power being monopolised by just one person.

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u/Pat5zero May 08 '22

History in Europe?

The Swedes in the 17th and 18th century were exactly like Russia and Germany, conquering many countries and in fact Europe has never seen a decade for the past 1,000 years that there wasn't some sort of conflict.

Less than 200 years ago the Crimean war was happening with several European countries involved fighting Russia. The blood of many nations have been spilled on Ukrainian soil.

BTW the Guinness book of records shows that in the last century Stalin and Mau Zedong had purged ten's of millions more human beings in their life time than Hither.

In fact Stalin purged millions of Ukrainians in the 1930's but that is not allowed to be proclaimed as an atrocity against the Ukrainian peoples less we offend the Ruskies. The Ukrainian peoples did take up arms against the Russians during WW2 and seeing history they were justified.

While good people stand by and do nothing, tyranny thrives.

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u/LeafsInSix May 08 '22

If only this clear-eyed honesty and fire had come out in March. It would have saved him, and by association many ordinary Germans, a lot of grief from the rest of the First World.

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u/Steinfall May 08 '22

They always said it. It may be „too normal“ for Germans to tell the world that we did bad and want to apologize. Non Germans are even getting annoyed that Germans again and again apologize.

It was always the clear message that we want to have all Eastern Europe (Baltics, Poland, Ukraine, Russia etc) to become a part of a peaceful Europe and acted accordingly. Including Ukraine (support by Germany for association agreement with EU etc). And we said from the first day that this approach to have Russia included failed.

On the other side the world MUST ACCEPT that Germany still need some extra time whenever it comes to support a war or deliver weapons.

Still a way to go to become a normal member of the free world. This war will definitely be a big step forward to this new role and therefore Scholz made the groundbreaking speech in the parliament talking about a „new era“.

You can not expect a statesmen to make historic speeches every second week.

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u/Zafranorbian May 08 '22

Germany is already delivering lots of stuff, for example the russians recently noticed that the mines that blow up their tanks are german mine systems. Sometimes silence is gold. And yes more and bigger equipment would be great to have, but not everything is as simple as it first might appear.

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u/Cinderpath May 08 '22

Actually they did say this all along, and the message, in German language, and not poor, out of context translations, was consistent.

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u/[deleted] May 08 '22

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u/nexusband May 08 '22

For some atonement?

Are you fucking kidding me? Germany is the ONLY country in the world, that openly does speak, educate and has done any kind of atonement possible for WW2! Learn some more history.

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u/tonytheloony May 08 '22

Plus most of the Germans alive today had nothing to do with the 3rd Reich.

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u/nexusband May 08 '22

And every German alive has been educated on that part (now, if they retained that education is a very different topic, but I'm pretty sure more than 80% know what's up with that...)

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u/WhatAboutTheBee May 08 '22

[Not a German citizen here].

You are correct.

To be an adult during the 3rd Reich, a person would be geriatric today.

18 yrs old in 1945 makes a person ~95 yrs old today.

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u/ICEpear8472 May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

And of the Germans alive today which had something to do with the 3rd Reich most of them grew up while Hitler already was in charge or even after the 3rd Reich was over. The Nazis took over in 1933. Back then the legal voting age was I believe 18 and the last mostly free election before the Nazis took over was in late 1932. The youngest German who could actually vote in that election would now be around 107 years old. There are some Germans that are that old but we are probably talking about fewer than 1000 people here.

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u/Aucade13 May 08 '22

Where do you see two generations?

Lost/Silent, Boomers, Gen-X, Millennials, Gen-Z and now Gen-A.

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u/Armathio May 08 '22 Take My Energy

Egh, don't bother. Germany will be hated till the end of time anyways,.no matter what we do.

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u/Particular_Grocery22 May 08 '22 edited May 08 '22 Silver

I very politely disagree. You are doing an amazing job, guys. Sorry if it feels like an undoable task at times when someone writes heartless comments but most people see your efforts and the colossal job completed already. A huge thank you for helping Ukraine so much 🇺🇦❤🇩🇪

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u/Steinfall May 08 '22 Tearing Up

You know. I am the first post war German generation. For decades I hear at every single situation with non Germans something about WW2. I experienced in decades literally thousands of situations where my country, culture was reduced to WW2 and many times it is this „you could do more“ attitude. Often connected to „give more money“

At the same time we learn at school every single year what Germans did in ww2. Every single year!

And than some armchair general shows up explaining to you how it was and that Germans should pay for it.

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u/Particular_Grocery22 May 08 '22

I have always thought about it so much, my dear. What you have done after the war is very noble and the only right way to follow to make peace and start anew. But it has always rubbed me a very wrong way. Exactly that what you said. Germany has a very long and rich history with unprecedented contributions to the world civilization in terms of art, science, just about every aspect. Nobody is denying history but how can all of that good be ever overlooked? Too many people hear "Germany" and immediately turn to the war subject. My mother taught me to try and be fair and it does not feel fair. Please stand tall and spread your wings. There is a lot to be proud about - both of old times and new. Let us not forget how much good you have brought into the world and even now how many innocent lives you are saving as we speak, my friends. You have my respect, gratitude and admiration 🇩🇪❤🇺🇦

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u/Steinfall May 08 '22 Helpful

Hey, thank you so much. This means Real a lot!

Ukraine suffers right now. We all know it. You are victims of new fascism and you will get our support.

We have rebuilt Europe after WW2 together and we will rebuilt Ukraine together after this war!

Stay strong!

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u/Particular_Grocery22 May 08 '22

Thank you so much, my dear! With such friends at our side we will get through this horror and yes, we will all get together and build everything better than before. So please do not let go of our hands so we may embrace and be stronger together. A big hug and stay amazing! 🌻

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u/Ein_Hirsch Germany May 10 '22 Take My Energy

That was so nice.

You guys clearly do not deserve what you all have to go through. And that is why we will keep trying our best to help you. Not just in the war but also afterwards.

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u/Particular_Grocery22 May 10 '22

We are the ones embroiled in this bloodshed war but we are not the only ones paying. People all over Europe have to tighten their belts and I feel so sorry and yet proud and grateful to my European brethren. Yet I get very upset when people start attacking Germany. You guys have done so so SO much! Both as private citizens and also as voters putting pressure on your politicians. Germany has its own way of doing things in orderly manner and it is perfectly reasonable. So much gets done so quickly, so much help sent and so many Ukrainians sheltered with love and care. From what I understand it is unprecedented for your country in so many ways and I admire you for standing up to this historical need we have. Thank you so much and please take care and stay strong 🌻

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u/Armathio May 08 '22

🇺🇦❤️🇩🇪

😭

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u/Aucade13 May 08 '22

The question I have always had is why am I responsible for shit that was before my time. My great grandfather died at 25 in WWI, none of my grandparents serviced or where involved with tge Nazi’s in WWII and my mother was born in 1940.

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u/telespiel May 08 '22

As a German, you are not responsible for atrocities committed by the Nazis. Your responsibility lies in keeping the memory alive so that the world never forgets and this dark chapter of your country's history won't be repeated either by your country or any other.

In that regard it doesn't matter if you, or any of your family members were part of the Nazi machine. You inherit this responsibility with the German passport, even as an immigrant.

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u/Aucade13 May 08 '22

That might have been the case before the 26th of February. Germans where pacifists and were always reminded of their responsibilities. Now where Russia has decided to go back in time germans are transitioning to a military power which the world actually feared after the wall came down. If you read the comments in this and other Ukraine subs you should notice that the mainstream expected a shift of a 77 year mindset in one day. So now we don’t have to remind the world of our responsibilities, they will keep reminding us.

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u/Armathio May 08 '22

I was born and raised in Germany. My father is a GI-Baby, therefore my grandfather fought Nazis, my grandmother was a kindergarten teacher.

My mother's family fled to Jugoslavia before the war started and migrated back in 1958.

Your family history doesn't matter. If you say "Why would I feel guilty" you will be lectured that guilt is inherited and Germans no matter their family history are guilty of genocide. There is no sense in it, it just is what it is.

US genocides don't matter, chinese genocides don't matter, russian genocides in the past don't matter (much) turkish genocides don't matter, English colonial genocides don't matter either.

You're German, you're 6th generation Nazi offspring, cope. Fullstop.

[It's shitty, I know. Perhaps in 100 years we won't be called Nazis anymore]

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u/Aucade13 May 08 '22

I don’t fell guilty at all. What bothers me was being called a Nazi as a five year okd in Australia where I grew up. At the time I didn’t even know what a Nazi was.

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u/Jebis May 08 '22

US guy here who had the opportunity to go to a university that attracted lots of international students - a guy from Köln was in my closest friend group and we had a lot of time to discuss this issue.

Anyone who has had an opportunity to make a German friend should realize how conscientious the German people are and how much they are aware of their past and hoping to be leaders for the future of Europe.

The best outcome we could possibly expect for this conflict would be for Germany to lead the way for Russians to accept the bad things they have done and realize they should unite with Europe and move forward in peace.

Germany is in the best position to model a post-Putin Russia

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u/telespiel May 08 '22

Your problem is that you think you should feel guilty for Nazi crimes. This is a huge misinterpretation of the historical responsibility that Germans have.

However, I'm wondering if maybe you're living in some sort of alternate reality because it seems people are constantly trying to frame you as a Nazi just because you've got a German passport.

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u/Armathio May 08 '22

I'm living in an alternate reality? Trust me, the hate towards Germany because of WW2 is still very real. Go on vacation abroad as German and you'll be called a Kraut.

And Germans are literally being told in school that they should feel guilty so it never happens again, lol. I was there.

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u/telespiel May 08 '22

I have never been called a Kraut or a Nazi, and the first thing that comes to people's mind when learning that I'm German is usually football, cars, and driving as fast as you want on the Autobahn (followed by disappointment when I tell them that's not exactly true).

When it comes to education your mileage may vary and I can't know what was taught in your classroom. However, I would disagree that this is how this historical responsibility is being taught or interpreted nationwide. It wasn't at my school.

You're rightfully questioning why you should feel guilty — because you are not, and you shouldn't. So how could anyone in their right mind expect you to feel like that? I'd suggest to take a step back and re-evaluate the situation. Maybe your teachers were wrong, or maybe you misunderstood?

It always surprises me when Germans complain about being expected to feel guilty and then getting all defensive. This is something that you see a lot in other countries that never worked up their dark past (e.g. I think it's now clearly visible in Russia).

In my opinion, our healthy relationship to our past is a staple and something to be proud of. It's what allowed Germany to become a wealthy, influential, and respected country despite the horrors that we unleashed upon the world.

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u/Aucade13 May 08 '22

Never being called a Kraut or Nazi is the reason why you shouldn’t be replying s comment. It means you can’t really feel what those have gone through.

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u/ThickWing May 08 '22

I must disagree with you. The Germans have been doing their best to be good citizens of the world. The mistake of relying on Russian energy was a honest one, compounded by good old fashion corruption which is common in all other counties as well.

I don’t believe in the concept of German Original Sin.

But if they nailed Schroeder and Merkel into 55 gallon drums and dumped them in the sea, that would bring a smile to my face.

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